A Response from Winter Promise

 I finally received a response from Winter Promise.  And it certainly shows the true nature of the company. If I had to pick one word I'd use shameful.  The chance of them correcting the glaring errors in that program are slim to none.  They offered lame excuse after lame excuse and no intentions of fixing the problems.  


I have pasted his email response below, along with my responses to him.  His words are in light blue, mine in dark.  His is supposed to be black but for whatever reason, blogger wants them light blue.  Sorry that it's hard to read.


This is exactly what I emailed  to him. 


Enjoy!

It is my hope the explanations in this email help your frustration in some way.   In general, I think that our Charlotte Mason approach was not what you expected and was not what you wanted.  The Charlotte Mason approach encourages a student to look at education as a “journey of discovery,” and has a little different approach from a strictly literature approach.  It has parents and students alike discovering together through a variety of resources.  If you haven’t had a lot of exposure to this methodology, or how it functions, you may be feeling some disconnect to the learning goals that our program relies upon.  

I am very familiar with the Charlotte Mason method.  I don't think you've hit it with this core.  I can see a little more of her method in some of your other products but definitely not in CAW.  When I think of Charlotte Mason this is what comes to mind: living books, whole books, narration, short lessons, nature walks, nature notebooks, art appreciation/picture study, copy work, dictation, time lines, handicrafts, composer study.

The disjointed feeling, for me, comes from the way materials are organized.   I'm studying Switzerland and reading about Spain and a family stranded on an island off the coast of Africa. I get that it's a Swiss family but the book is more about their life on the island. And, ironically, while studying Africa we're supposed to read Heidi.

We read about a little about the Netherlands but there isn't a page for in the travel diary. So I have to make my own.

And I'm not the first person to mention this disjointedness.  I was reading on your forums and plenty of people were  unhappy.  All they way back in 2007.  Yet five years later, I'm dealing with what they complained about.

I read about one woman who said they're finally enjoying it because she dropped a lot of the books, rearranged the schedule, and spent hours finding other materials.   That's not something that I want to do.  It's not something that I, or anyone else, should have to do.  I paid you a lot of money.

You mention in the catalog and online that CAW is not your typical open and go program due to the cultural gatherings.  At no point to you mention the need for tons of other materials to complete assignments.  If you're not going to provide the proper materials for the assignments then maybe you should give people a heads up about the need for additional materials.

I’d like to share some of my thinking on some of the difficulties you presented over the phone:

Draw Your World:

It is important to recognize that the methodology of this learning approach is to have the student draw the countries.  As the student engages a country he is also looking at its shape.  This repetition is key for learning geography.  The desired outcome is not necessarily for the student to remember every detail, but that, by drawing the countries, he or she will be more likely to remember the country’s name and location for a lifetime.  The Sketch that you referenced does of course not show the following: (There is reason behind the map that is pictured in the book)

I'm going to call a big, fat cop-out here Don.  Your response to this is unacceptable.

1.        Iceland—due to the projection of the map and the constraints of the size of the page and a student’s need to be able to write in each of the countries . . .  Iceland  was “cropped” out due to its location.

You might want to check out Homeschool in the Woods or Knowledge Quest maps.  They were able to include Iceland on an 8x11 map of Europe.  Also look at www.worldatlas.com  They have a wonderful map of Europe with Iceland and the boundry of Europe.

2.       Russia—due to the size of Russia and the learning tool of drawing the country; Russia is on the “Asia” sketch.  The importance of seeing and drawing the full country takes priority over the Europe/Asia distinction. 

It doesn't really matter whether or not Russia is on the Asia map.  You ask them to clearly mark the boundary between Europe and Asia in sketch 7.  You give them an incomplete map of Europe to mark it on.   Shame on you!!!  You also ask them to label the Caspian Sea, Barents Sea, Ural Mountains, Caucasus Mountains, Volga River, Don River, and the Ural River.  None of which are on the map that you provided for the assignment. 

How is this not supposed to be a problem for your customer?   

3.       Ukraine—to include more of the Ukraine (like Iceland) would significantly reduce the ability to practically use the map because of the map’s size on the limits of the page.

The solution to this is simple.  Don't ask them to label things that aren't on the map you provide. Or chose a different map.  Again I suggest you check out this site.    www.worldatlas.com 

4.       Water versus Land---as part of the learning objective we ask students to color in the water, which has them more fully interacting with the map.

I don't have a problem with the learning objective.  I have a problem with the shoddy map that you provided.  

5.       Projection—(You told me the Caspian or Black Sea looks like a lake) How a location looks does change based upon a map’s projection, and this is a reflection of that. 

Are you kidding me?  That's your response to the fact that your map , that I paid for, is drawn incorrectly.   It's for a child's assignment.  A child who is supposed to be learning to sketch Europe from this map.  Your assignment asked them to color the water.  It's hard for a child to do that on this map.  The assignment wan't about map projection it was to color the seas.   I'm FURIOUS Don.  

 Instead of the Baltic Sea flowing into the North Sea, you have it landlocked.  That is a problem Don.  And it's not a problem with me or my child.  It's a problem with your product and your company's inability to admit they made an error and your  refusal to correct it.  

               You show me where in that book where you explain to them about map           projection.  And nowhere in the actual assignment do you tell them to be aware of map projection. 

 I, as an adult, can spot the error easily.  A child, however, probably needs the map to be drawn correctly.    

I can't even believe that is the best excuse you could come up with.  I don't even think it's the truth.  The truth is that you don't want to fix it until you use up the copies that you already have printed.  That is so shameful.

And for the record, go read you forums.  People have been complaining about the maps for upwards of 5 years.

We do plan to make a note that Iceland is not on the map.  We will also edit to see if there are some items listed that are not on the map sketch. 

        Gee thanks.  Don't forget  Greenland, the Caspian Sea, Barents Sea, Ural Mountains, Caucasus Mountains, Volga River, Don River, and the Ural River while you're at it. 

Geography Worksheets:

The purpose of the Geography worksheets is to give the student another opportunity to reinforce the “look” of a country as part of the learning process, and to learn how to interact with all types of maps, and find a given location or landmark.  These questions in these worksheets are another opportunity to see a country’s shape.

You asked why you would need to get additional maps after you purchased the program.  We make it clear that an atlas or globe are required to complete the program, but for unified results on something such as the geography worksheets, it simply works better to be working from one set of maps.  This map set is free to everyone on the internet, a price point our parents usually like!  In addition, an aspect of our educational approach is to engage a student by utilizing technology/the internet.  The student is learning key researching skills for the future, plus, the web is a treasure trove of information offered free of charge, and is a powerful educational tool.

The problem is, Don, that even after using the recommended online maps in your program, you still couldn't complete the assignment.

1.       Ireland-  I did not have any problems with this worksheet online.

2.       Switzerland – (yes the typo you mentioned)  I did have to go online to answer two of the questions.  I googled for a map of Switzerland and was able to find one that had the information I was looking for.  I also googled the “answer” at the back to test that as a method to finding the answers.  We could consider removing the questions you referenced-- the learning objective would still not be compromised.  I am not sure it is poor educationally to have a student utilize the internet though.  But I do understand that it is not always possible to do so.

I am sorry for your frustration with the Geo Worksheets, but we believe they accomplish the objective intended.  In looking through the rest of the year’s assignments, I cannot spot any difficulty with completing them as outlined.

Then be up front about the need for additional research.  You give an assignment, say to use this, that, and the other to complete it but it can't be completed with the resources that you've recommended.  How do you not see this as a problem for customers?  BE UP FRONT.  It's really not that difficult.  

Population Information: This information is in the book Material World.

Find Out About Spain, France and China:  You shared with me that you were frustrated with the book because it had you reading Spanish.   Our approach to the material in these “cultural experience” books is to have fun.  Many families have gotten a good laugh at the reader’s expense, however, most families browse through the language section together, everyone looking on, while seeing the words and their meanings.  As they sit together on the couch, they experience the language and try it out for themselves.  (This is a part of the Charlotte Mason approach.)  Some students are fascinated with language and others are not.  This book is not intended to be a language lesson, but instead is intended to introduce the reader to the culture.  Language is part of culture.  Our expectation with all of the “language” content in this series is fun and exposure to the “sound” and “feel” of the language.  This is clearly the goal of these books, as well, rather than language instruction.  But we understand that not every book is a winner with all people.

I guess I think it's a little redundant to be reading page, after page, after page of Spanish phrases.  I'm all for reading aloud with the crazy voices and accents but reading page after page of this this while we're supposed be be studying Switzerland and Netherlands is what I would call dis-jointed. She could've been learning something about one of these countries.

I don't really want to dispute your book choices because different people  like different things.  Although I don't feel like it really represented Spanish culture.  At least not according to my husband, who's been there.

Stonehenge:  We spend a lot of time on Stonehenge in our Ancient Worlds Study.  The purpose of CAW allows us to give only snapshots of many interesting things.  We actually hope that this spurs students on to investigate some of these landmarks more fully for themselves.  This is another goal of the Charlotte Mason approach, and the fact that your student was inspired to seek for more information on this topic is a sign of success within this learning approach.  This particular “snapshot” can lead to a great educational experience on the web or in a library, and students can decide for themselves what interests them and what they’d like to pursue, which may be different from student to student (even within families).

Again, I say BE UP FRONT and say that.  Tell me that I'm going to need to look into a lot of extra resources.   And what was the point of my buying that cultural resources package if it wasn't going to cover any of the things in the notebooking pages?  

And let me be clear that the fact that she had  to research Stonehenge might be a success for Charlotte Mason, it is not a success for your program.  People purchase boxed curriculums because they don't want to have to spend the time researching for materials.  I paid you to provide the materials necessary to complete the program.  You failed.  

Day after day after day I had to look else where to complete the assignments that you provided.  It would've been nice to have been able to complete some of the assignments with the materials I paid for. 

At the very least, you should be honest and state that cultural gathering prep is just the tip of the iceberg in the amount of time that the parent has to spend prepping for this program.

Plight of the Children:  You mentioned that this section was too fact-based.  Although it is not all fact-based, we think that facts provide a great opportunity to discuss the information and its implications.  The Charlotte Mason approach advocates exploring facts, and discovering things through text and pictures, particularly art, and this is how the resource “Material World” is to be used.  Parents and children alike have been greatly moved by the relative excess of our country compared to less privileged countries around the world.  This book is a photojournalistic essay (an artform in and of itself) that seeks to show these differences, as well as allowing people to peek into the homes, workplaces, and schools of nations around the world.  The book, “Working Children” is designed to be used in much the same way as “Material World,” but portrays the problem of children who are forced to work.  Again, the idea is to discuss and evaluate the facts, and talk about their implications.  The “Prayer and Personal Involvement Journal” from this section is anything but fact-based, but instead seeks to have students evaluate their own life situation against the life situation of others around the globe.  Our reviews on the “Plight of the Children” section have been very good, but we do recognize that it may not be what you expected.  I would think this is another instance in which the Charlotte Mason approach really isn’t one with which you feel comfortable.  The learning goals/methods are likely just different than those you embrace.

I think Material World is a fabulous, although dated, book.  The intro to Working Children was also wonderful.  Then it turned into a great, big snooze fest.  We only got 6 weeks into the prayer journal.  Apparently it started off slow with us.  And none of it seems to gel together.  It's so random. 

Kevin asked if we would take the whole program back.  I looked up your order and saw that the last item was shipped on April 22^nd.  At the time of your phone call, you had the curriculum for five months.  We are always willing to talk and work with people due to our inventory issues.  Usually we get a call from a family around six weeks after they order.   They do not know if they want to return it yet, so they are making sure that they still have time.  We always let them know that as long as they have called it is not a problem.

Actually,  the last time I received anything from you directly was in April.  I received random items from Amazon all summer.  Your shipping methods are appalling.  

I was only notified once that something was coming and the shipping info was incorrect at that.   I would receive random shipments of items, never with a packing slip.  I'm still not sure to this day if I actually received everything.  

Of course you know all of this because this is typical of your shipping methods.   You can just read on your forums to see a million discussions of the ridiculous shipping practices.  I have a local friend here using WP this year and her shipping experience was the same.  

We are willing to refund you for the Children of Many Lands book and the Geography Worksheets if you send them back.  This is not according to our policy, but it seems a reasonable thing to do.

Keep your money.  Clearly you need it more than we do.  Instead, I'll give you something.  My prayers.  I am going to be praying for your company without ceasing.  I am going to be praying that God will touch your hearts and that you will take the steps necessary to correct the many errors in the products that you put out.  

You are taking people's hard-earned money and giving them a error-riddled product.  I am not saying this to be mean or because I'm angry. I'm saying it because it's true.  I'd suggest that you send some time reading on the forums.  People are mentioning all the errors, they have been for more than 5 years.  There are too many errors in the books you publish, there are errors in the IG.  I had to spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out page #s because you had the same assignments repeated over and over.  

I've had many people comment on my blog and say how they've had to drop your programs because of the errors.  I asked one woman why she didn't report the errors; she said it was because it didn't seem like it would matter. You could barely handle the shipping problems.

I'm going to leave you with a little bit from a couple of posts that I found on your forums.  This was back in 2008.

A mom asked...

I know that there are typos and such in the TM's regarding wrong or duplicated pages and I'm wondering if there's a corrections "sticky" or yahoo area where previous persons or WP has corrected these errors? 

Another user responded with...

It's a fabulous idea!!! But doesn't exist.  Very sad.  I find them a lot too.  There doesn't seem to be much concern about it.

I think the part that I bolded and underlined says it all.

I think the idea of your program is a good one. That's why I decided to give it a try.   The execution is poor.  It could be great if you started corrected the errors.  Quite frankly, it's the right thing to do.

I'm praying for you Don.

Blessings, 

Stefanie Smith

I'd like to encourage anyone who's had issues with errors within a Winter Promise program to write them and let them know.  Even if it was years ago.  They are sticking their heads in the sand and trying to pretend that there isn't a problem.  In the meantime, they continue to sell people a product that has errors and they think it's okay.

It really makes me sick to my stomach when I think of other families paying for this only to find the same frustrations.  I am blessed to be able to afford to just ditch it and buy something different but not everyone can.

In fact, I'm going to be more vigilant in notifying errors in any product that I use.  If we don't say anything how can we expect to see improvements?

Review: A Young Scholar's Guide to Composers

I was recently given the opportunity to review A Young Scholar's Guide to Composers by Bright Minds Press.  It was a very timely review item for us as I'd been slacking in this area.

About A Young Scholar's Guide to Composers

A Young Scholar's Guide is a 32 week study of 26 famous composers and 6 musical eras.  It includes map work, time line work, note taking pages, listening suggestions, games, quizzes and so much more.  It is full of interesting ideas and very easy to implement.

It has a suggested 4-day schedule that pretty much does the work for you. All I have to do is choose a composer and print out a few work sheets and we're ready to go.

Our Experience

We have really been enjoying the lessons and have been learning a lot of fun facts about these men.

The bios for the composer are informative, interesting, and just the right length.  I love how the author's have included their faith and God's role in their lives as part of the readings.  Mackenzie was particularly thrilled that this information was included.  She loves hearing about how God works in the lives of others, especially famous people.


Each week we get to map the birth place of the composer, create a composer card filled with the highlights of their lives, color a beautifully down coloring page, and fill out the timeline.  The timeline is one of my favorite parts of the study.  It's really well done and not only includes the obvious date information, but they have us adding in people who were influenced by the musician and their friendships.  It's really been neat to see how everyone is interconnected.



It includes several listening suggestions for each composer and includes links to videos on youtube where you can listen and watch.  We've been getting the music of iTunes so we can listen to all day long.  We've enjoyed all of the selections and have found some new favorites.


Final Thoughts

We are truly LOVING this resource.  We have kept up with it consistently since receiving the book because it's so easy to use.  It is now a permanent part of our homeschool.  We decided to put all of our completed pages in a composer study notebook and it's been really nice to have that to look back on and refresh our memories.

I'm hoping they'll put out another volume with some more composers.  ;o)





F.Y.I.

Available at Timberdoodle
Published by Bright Ideas Press
Grades: 4-8
Price: $31.50

I was blessed with a copy of this book as part of Timberdoodles Blogger Review Team.  All opinions are my own.

Checkout Timberdoodle on Facebook.
Check out the free Timberdoodle Catalog for more great homeschooling resources.

Tot School: Raising Rock Stars H

Kayleigh is 43 months old

We’ve been working on our third Raising Rock Stars unit the last couple of weeks.  We’ve been focusing on the letter Hh and Exodus 20:12 (woot!).

Here our our highlights.

Raising Rock Stars

Our verse was Honor your father and mother.  Exodus 20:12

She colored it.

Cut it.  She was, again, unhappy with the length of the verse. LOL

She worked on writing capital H.

She cut out her vocabulary cards.

For some reason I forgot to do our RRS craft so we’ll have to do that next week.

Other Activities

H/h sort and hippo color match are both from Confessions of a Homeschooler.

She worked on her cutting and numbers in some of her Kumon books.  She worked really hard to try and cut those short lines.  It was a challenge for her.

She did some button sorting with some printables from Home Grown Hearts but the blog is no longer around.  =o(

She did this H maze from ABC Twiggles.  We used our Do-a-Dot Markers to mark the maze.

She matched capital and lowercase h’s.  I cannot remember where I found this. 

She did some more dot painting with the printables from Homeschool Creations.

We broke out the See & Spell puzzles.  She will play with these forever.  And we practiced naming the letters as we played.

And we had fun playing Hungry, Hungry Hippo.  Big fun!

Literature

We’ve been continuing along in our Sonlight P 3/4 core.  I don’t really have a lot of pictures of this portion of our day because we read all snuggled together. 

This week we were  reading from our Eloise Wilkins Treasury.  I just cannot speak highly enough about this wonderful treasury.  Kayleigh just LOVES it.  The stories and the pictures are just so sweet and timeless that Kayleigh cannot get enough of this book.  We read every story at least three times in a row and she’s taken to carrying it around with her.  I think that everyone needs this book. LOL

Weekly Wrap-Up: The One With Proper Maps

Ahhh, what a week!  A peaceful, educational week without me having to deal with tons of errors and tears.  Obviously we started back with Sonlight this week.  <insert content sigh here>

Here’s our run down

Bible

I had ordered Sonlight’s bible program so we started that this week.  I’ve always been pleased with Sonlight’s bible selection and this one was no exception.  We are using Remembering Gd’s Awesome Acts, which is a study on Genesis and Exodus.  It touts i self as a “Create-a-Notebook Bible and History Series” and that’s a fairly accurate description.  And you actually read the Bible. Everyday.

In the six weeks that we were using Winter Promise they didn’t schedule one Bible reading.  Really.  I’m  not making that up.  That’s why we were also using the Bible Study Guide for All Ages. 

 

The first lesson had an awesome activity to show how our lives, if we approach history from God’s viewpoint, color and affect the world.

 

  The study also incorporates other curriculum areas such as history, geography, art, writing, etc.  Love that.  And the notebooking pages are really nice.

 

Math

Math was a bit of a thorn in our sides this week.  She was learning about equivalent fractions and decided to freak out when she didn’t catch on right away.  Her main problems: freaking out and not reading the directions.  Had she bothered to read the directions or listen to me as I explained things, the freak outs would not have been necessary.  It’s a miracle we both survived. 

Science

We started our unit on muscles this week. 

We had some fun testing our reflexes when we talked about our nerves controlling our muscles.

We also did a little experiment to show how quickly muscles can get fatigued, particularly muscles that you might not use as often.  She had to hold out her arm for 5 minutes.  It might have been easier had she been a ballerina. LOL

Language Arts

As you might recall, we haven’t started our LA spines yet because we’re waiting for Advanced Language Lessons and Writing With Skill to be released.  They were originally scheduled to be released in the fall so I was checking to see the status, seeing as it’s now fall.  I wasn’t happy with what I discovered.  The release dates have been pushed back to Janurary.  Wahhhhhhhhhh!!!

Why????  I don’t know.  The slight upside is that they are offering up PDF manuscripts of both. For free.  They’re not the final draft but pretty close.  The down side is that I don’t really care to read much on the computer screen, plus I’ll have to print all the worksheets. 

I’m going to give them both a whirl as I was able to load the books onto my iPad and I like reading off that over the computer.  As for the possible rough draft errors, I doubt that they’ll be as extensive as the junk Winter Promise made me pay for.

And I’m extra excited that the Writing With Skill requires a lot less parental involvement.  Nice…

Social Studies

This week we started our replacement for Winter Promise, Sonlight’s Core F,  Eastern Hemisphere.   It focuses on Australia, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa.  90% of the world’s unevangelized people live in those areas.  I’m sure you can see where this core is going.  Oh yeah, it goes there day one. 

Just reading the into to 100 Gateway Cities touched both my daughter and I.  Add to that the story of missionaries, John and Helen Dekker, and we were invested already.

Part of WP’s study was the plight of the children around the world.  I was interested in that a lot but it turned out to be a few books filled with dry statistics.  We never got invested.  I’m glad we found what was missing because I feel that thinking outside of herself is important to my daughter’s education.

Along with this portion of the study is the Eastern Hemisphere Explorer (EHE) which is the more factual and geographical part of the study.  Sonlight describes it best…

Tour 14 Eastern Hemisphere countries in-depth through maps, a timeline, though-provoking questions and creative projects. Especially valuable as a springboard to help students become great researchers. Students will use the World Book Encyclopedia to answer many of the questions, but will also develop research skills through use of outside sources. Your student will need your help, initially, to engage in this level of research.

And I’ve just got to mention that the maps are accurate.  Woo-hoo!!!!!  And it comes with an answer key. Oh yeah!

 

We’re currently studying the Pacific Islands and she’s enjoying  EHE so far.  Her creative project, which they refer to as a Choose Your Own Adventure, is to make a colorful map of an island resort.  We’ll be sure to share that with you all when we’re finished.

Other Stuff

Piano is going splendidly.  The private lessons are really helping her progress a lot faster.  She’s learned 3 new hand positions this week and is loving the challenge.

Her art class is also going well.  They’re working on some big project that I haven’t seen yet but she’s enjoying the class.

It’s finally stopped raining long enough for the soccer fields to dry and my laundry load has gotten a lot easier.  Yay me!!

Visual Latin is still the bomb.  We’re on lesson 5 and I’m about ready to write my review. 

I still have not heard back from Winter Promise regarding the refund or the errors in the mapping program that he promised to get back to me about.  I wasn’t really expecting him to, but one would hope that they’d at least be concerned about the errors.   Maybe next week. <insert my eyeroll here>

Check out the other Wrap-Ups over at Weird, Unsocialized Homeschoolers.